I am not a lawyer.
In my brown shirt.
A couple of hours ago, I got out of the NSW supreme court, where we heard the final day of argument in AVN v HCCC. The anti-vaccination group took the NSW Healthcare Complaints Commission to court, appealing the HCCC’s jurisdiction to issue its famous public warning against the Australian Vaccination Network.
We had a new judge who was well informed on previous sessions and written submissions to the court. Today, we had her interrogation of the barristers for both sides on specific points of law.
I’m not a lawyer and what follows is based on my impressions, scribbled notes, memory and inexpert interpretations. Don’t rely on it for anything.
The Healthcare Complaints Commission of New South Wales is governed by the Health Care Complaints Act of 1993. Most time today was spent on on section 7 (1) b) and 7 (2) of the act:
7 What can a complaint be made about?
(1) A complaint may be made under this Act concerning:
(a) the professional conduct of a health practitioner (including any alleged breach by the health practitioner of Division 3 of Part 2A of the Public Health Act 1991 or of a code of conduct prescribed under section 10AM of that Act), or
(b) a health service which affects the clinical management or care of an individual client.
(2) A complaint may be made against a health service provider.
(3) A complaint may be made against a health service provider even though, at the time the complaint is made, the health service provider is not qualified or entitled to provide the health service concerned.
In particular, the judge wanted to make clear what it would mean for a health service (such as Meryl Dorey’s website) to affect the clinical management or care of an individual client.
The AVN’s case
In particular, the AVN’s barrister wanted Her Honour to hold that evidence was needed of at least one specific individual case of a person whose healthcare was influenced by the AVN’s activities. The HCCC seemed to rely heavily on my friend Ken McLeod’s original complaint to the Commission. This noted the significantly lower rates of vaccination in Northern NSW, Dorey’s stomping ground. A reasonable to-and-fro on the issue of correlation vs. causation ensued, in which the actual effectiveness of the AVN was questioned, a theme to which HCCC’s barrister would later return. The AVN’s barrister rejected the idea that a general statistical correlation in vaccination rates was sufficient to establish that the clinical management or care of an individual client had been affected by the AVN’s activities.
The AVN’s barrister objected to the HCCC’s acting as a general consumer or public-health watchdog and took a strict line on the requirement for specific clinical effects of the AVN on individuals to be demonstrated.
One of the most humorous exchanges occurred when the HCCC’s barrister submitted that clinical management or care implied that the healthcare provider have some knowledge of the clinical situation of the client. The judge hypothesised a public lecture by an antivaxxer, based upon which a specifically nominated parent chose not to vaccinate. She asked whether that would constitute an effect, and the AVN barrister conceded that that would indeed trigger jurisdiction for the HCCC. When the judge pointed out that a public speaker could not know the medical history of each audience member, I double-underlined one word on my pad: ‘PWNED’. The barrister ceded the point.
There was the question of whether ‘information’ should be considered equivalent to ‘advice’, whether that mattered, and whether the disclaimer on the AVN’s website could reduce the latter to the former. The sentence ‘Isn’t that just a cop-out?’ was uttered by an incredulously laughing judge. She didn’t seem convinced by the suggestion that the AVN was ‘just putting stuff out there’, seemingly suggesting that it would be absurd to think the AVN did not actually want people to pay attention to them.
One particular passage from the AVN was called out, implying a link between vaccination and autism. The judge noted that while the AVN’s site is extensive, given the prevalence of concern about autism a parent might be expected to latch on to it.
All parties agreed soon enough that while the question of an effect on specific, named individual was unresolved, if an anonymous poll of non-vaccinators showed they had changed their mind on vaccination because of Dorey, then that would satisfy 7 (1) b).
Very amusingly, the AVN’s barrister argued that Meryl Dorey’s evidence should be ruled inadmissible for three reasons: Dorey’s opinion is not necessarily that of the actual plaintiff, the AVN and its committee (yeah, right); Dorey’s statement of her intentions is irrelevant to the facts of the matter; and her description of the AVN’s purpose in 2011 is temporally irrelevant to the AVN’s purpose in 2009. Whether the judge will consider it admissible was not revealed, but as it later transpired it seems Meryl Dorey did more harm than good to the AVN. Nothing new there, then. Cheers Meryl.
In case you missed that, here it is again. The AVN’s barrister requested that Meryl Dorey’s testimony be ruled inadmissible, so helpful was she to the HCCC.
In summary, the AVN’s barrister argued that Parliament drafted 7 (1) b) in a very specific way, incompatible with the interpretation that the HCCC has jurisdiction for broad public-health watchdoggery.
The HCCC’s case
The judge first questioned whether the allegation in My Friend Ken McLeod’s original complaint, that people make decisions based on the AVN’s info, is the same as an established fact. There was some discussion about the fact-checking by the HCCC. This was a reasonable question, rather disappointingly answered, in my opinion.
Even worse was the discussion of the particular statistic mentioned above: that 30-33% of kids are not fully vaccinated in the Northern Rivers, versus some presumably much lower national rate. This was very disappointing, with far too much reliance on Ken’s complaint. Regardless of the accuracy of Ken’s stats (which I do not seriously doubt), the assertion in his complaint was not an appropriate source for Court to rely on. I hope the judge does some background reading on this. Scarily, the HCCC’s barrister even came close to repeating Dorey’s own Pertussis Lie as she scrabbled for statistics.
The HCCC argued that specified ‘individual clients’ need not be identified (anonymously or otherwise). It is sufficient to establish that it’s likely that someone has been affected in a clinical sense by Dorey’s publications. That this was the intent all along was well established by evidence sourced from the AVN. For example, the AVN’s stated aims in its Articles of Association, and the ‘principle activities’ of the AVN stated in its 2008-09 financial reports to the Office of Fair Trading. Namely: the AVN intended to assist parents in making an ‘informed choice’.
Both barristers agreed in their own debates with the judge that other hypotheses could explain local drops in vaccination rates.
The HCCC then moved on to Meryl Dorey’s evidence, and it became apparent why the AVN’s barrister was keen to suppress it (I noted, with an ironic smile to myself, the echoes of Meryl’s own abuse of the DMCA to suppress records of her own idiocy). When asked if, in 2009, the AVN intended to help parents make the decision to vaccinate (or not), Dorey replied ‘yes’. Oops. There goes the temporal irrelevancy.
The HCCC made clear its belief that the case need not fall over if the judge was unconvinced that specific vaccination decisions were made on the basis of the AVN’s information. If AVN claims were ‘taken into account’ in the decision-making process, then it had affected the healthcare of the ‘client’, or the consumer of the AVN’s information.
The judge enquired as to the AVN’s web traffic, and the HCCC’s barrister was unable to respond. She did point out research that showed that people often turn to the Internet in the first instance for vaccination and other medical information. In my opinion, a better prepared barrister could have made a strong argument that the AVN’s high search-engine rankings for vaccination-related topics in Australia would be evidence of a likely influence on vaccination decisions.
It seemed the judge was thoroughly convinced of the AVN’s explicitly anti-vaccination stance. Mention was made several times of the notorious ‘Love them, Protect them, Never inject them’ t-shirt, which the AVN has sold for many years. The judge also wryly dismissed Dorey’s habitual denial of her anti-vaccination stance, stating:
It’s coy that your client is shy about admitting what it’s on about
There arose many more arcane legal points that I am afraid this blogger lost track of. Pharmacist sex popped up briefly but uninterestingly. Sorry I couldn’t follow everything.
In the end, it seems to me that the strongest argument presented by the AVN was that very specific wording was used by Parliament in 7 (1) b). This wording need not have been so specific, were the HCCC intended to have a broad remit. It is a principle of statutory interpretation that legislators use language advisedly.
However, it would be decisive if the judge were persuaded it is enough for anyone to be influenced in their decision-making by the AVN’s activities. And in that case, to win their case, the AVN and Meryl Dorey would have to be found wholly unsuccessful in their stated aims.
Oh, and did I mention that the AVN’s barrister wanted Meryl’s evidence ruled inadmissible?
I am not a lawyer.
158 Comments
Thank you Dave; it was worth the wait.
Thanks for a great round-up Dave. I’ve been doing a lot of research on the influence of anti-vax material on the web lately, and there is evidence that even 5 -10 mins of viewing anti-vax material can influence people’s decisions when it comes to making choices about vaccination (Kata, A. 2011 Dec, Vaccine).
Also in support of the argument “do they affect people’s choices?” they come up #1 on Google.com.au for “vaccination”. More than 80% of Aussies use Google as a search engine and 97.2% don’t look beyond page one (ie top ten hits).
One in two people self diagnose on the web, 2/3 research drugs (BUPA, Feb 2011). In a recent study 97% of parents said they would look up vax advice on the web.
There is potentially a huge reach for the AVNs nonsense.
There are more stats to support this. Perhaps I should write a blog post too.
Thanks for the summary! Sounds like an interesting day in court.
Nice roundup, Dave. Thanks for taking the time and putting in the effort.
Dr Rachie, yes, a blog entry would be good – or perhaps a submission to The Drum to counter a recent anti-vax post made there?
I’m working on it now. Dave has inspired me!
To paraphrase Dr Rachie, Dave, you’re an inspiration. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to put this together. I might make it to court on Friday.
You simple simple people, dumb down by the system to believe everything that you are told. A government body investigates government agencies and states that there are no issues and no ill affects and you people believe this crap. Government agencies strip associations like AVN of everything that they can to prevent freedom of speech and a balanced argument. Since when throughout history has the herd mentality worked, not for Rome, not for Stalin, not for Hitler, not for China….oh that’s right only in Australia!! because the population wants something to believe in because they are to afraid of thinking for themselves and dumb down so they wont speak out, oh and my favourite “the government wouldn’t do anything to hurt us”. Freedom of speech, informed choice, two sides to every story, does all of this sound familiar or are you all too dumb down!!
Wake up Australia the government has most of you running scared to comment and stand up for your rights. Whether or not Vaccination is good bad or otherwise, how is it possible that you simple people believe that what the government says is 100% correct, how many thousands of mistakes have been proven over history that they screw up over and over again….you are a disgrace to the human race.
Check for yourselves, the number one killer of humans in the USA by direct intervention is “Doctors”, the number 3 killer of humans in the world is “Doctors” and you all hold them up on a pedestal as if they are demi gods…pathetic. They are human, they make mistakes, research, research, research, the medical world does not have all the answers, if they did the waiting time to get into your GP would be counted in hours not days/weeks/months!!
Yours Sincerely in Disgust…..David
lulz @ previous comment.
^Best. Comment. Ever.
Thanks for your thoughts, David. So good to hear your opinions that you’ve typed out on your computer and internet connection that are provided to you by scientific advances, in the relatively safe, clean and healthy environment provided by equal advances in health sciences.
Hey David!
I take it you have never had the need to consult a doctor? Governments are not by any means beyond reproach and neither are all doctors collectively but for goodness sake get a grip on reality! You only have the ability to sit there on your piece of electronic equipment whatever that may be and make such idiotic comments because of the intelligence and dedication of scientists over history. Do yourself and us a favour and crawl back under the rock from whence you came!
Thanks Shellity
Thanks Louisa, I have 3 degrees and nearly 30 years experience in the research field, maybe you should try it…..research, you just may find something out for yourself instead of being a sheep!!!!!!!
Oh naive Rhianna, please get back to me when you have actually researched this issue outside of the AMA and government backed studies. Independent research, free from influence, wouldn’t you prefer the science not to be tainted, or would you still prefer to believe “the government wouldnt do anything to hurt us”, I hear this statement thousands of times a year and that is how they want you to be….dumbed down and fooled. Try your stories on someone that doesnt have the science background and 30 years of research behind them
I agree with David (comment 7). We should stop believing that what the government says is 100% correct as politicians are generally regarded as most trusted people, right?. Unfortunately there have never been any non-governmental vaccination studies, and we are not sure if vaccination had any effect to smallpox or polio. David also made the great point that “Doctors” are the number 3 killer of humans. We should obviously get rid of all the doctors and people would clearly live longer, just like centuries ago when people live much longer than now. And thanks David for pointing out that doctors make mistakes. Australian government official position clearly states that doctors are not humans and don’t make mistakes. Thanks David, your 30 years of research must have been in a field of vaccination.
Thanks for the update. Meetings to attend this AM (GMT) but checking up on this was my number on priority. #StopAVN rocks.
I’ve got some more straw here if David needs it but he’s used quite a lot so probably doesn’t need more.
trolls are lols. I love infowarriors. They’re cute, in a sort of bent-out-of-shape, uncute way.
Thanks for the run-down, Dave. Very informative.
Hey Louisa, there is a big difference between scientists and science as there is a big difference between tainted science and independent science. With all due respect to you and Rhianna, your copy and paste statements do not hold you in good stead for individuality. Maybe you should have compared notes prior to you both posting on this site, just saying!!….I am not sure but I think that having your predetermined responses to anyone that opposes your views could be just a little see through, you know transparent….but hey maybe that is just me, I have a nice rock to return to, full of innovative things like doors and windows…yes yes I know science invented those…mmmmm or did it???
Good one Peter, comment number 15, sorry had to take my shoes off for that one.
Do the research smallpox and polio were all but wipeout prior to vaccination. Research time lines on the 2 and then the time line on the introduction of vaccination for proof. Vaccination did not stop them, nor did vaccination stop most of the man made common ailments. Do the research stop being blinded by the marketing, it is all there if you choose to find it.
David, I’ve been asking on my facebook page (vaxfax), where people who end up not vaccinating their children (or would not if they had children) do their research, since “do your research” is a common quote from them. Love to know where you do/did yours if you don’t find that an invasion of privacy, thanks.
Funnily enough, two independent people came to the same conclusion about you. Coincidence? Or common sense?
Thanks for attributing to me a lot of things I haven’t said. I’m very interested to hear your answer regarding your source of research (posed by Colin Jenkins)
Obvious troll is obvious.
And in total denial apparently.
Colin, I have dedicated my life to researching medical science myths and government fraud. It is personal as a very healthy child very close to me died in my arms within 3 minutes of a so called safe vaccination!! The ingredients of these products the marketing and the blatant lies surrounding vaccination is unbelievably swallowed by people like the stop the AVN and the general population. Why because you want to believe, sure we all do, but in what? I once did a presentation at a year 7 class and presented science and I got real responses, real information back from these kids. They are concerned that the adults of today have lost touch because they are too busy or dont have the time. It is true that the average person will put more time into researching their new car than they would a medication or vaccination, why because they blindly trust….do this at your own peril, your car can be traded in but your life cannot!!
David, smallpox was eradicated in 1977. Edward Jenner demonstrated in 1798, that inoculation with cowpox could protect against smallpox. Vaccinations become popular in the 50s and 60s. So your 30 years of research concluding that “smallpox [was] all but wipeout prior to vaccination is almost right! You only missed by a century. Your 3 degrees were worth it!
Just out of interest what stopped smallpox? Surely it wasn’t doctors. They are killing people.
It has been interesting and I thank you for your comments and feedback, it has confirmed the ignorance surrounding this issue.
I will retreat to my rock now, thank you Louisa!
Unfortunately if you do not look you will not find, time lines on global man made diseases are there for all to see, european science is so far advanced than any other on this planet, australian science is a farce, I have a friend at a very well “respected” science organisation in australia and the comment they make is everything is for sale, I can produce a safety certificate for the right price, I hate it but I need the job and the money………please think carefully before you all make rash un informed statements that you are parroting off.
It has been sad but not unexpected…thank you for the input into my current study
Whoops! Who Godwinned?
Hey David, do you work as a scientist in Australia? Cause I do and I’m interested in your comment about my work being a farce. Can you provide some evidence for this claim please? Ta
Don’t you just love it when people hear one half true fact and use it to build an inaccurate argument?
David, for all his inaccuracies, has one half truth in his statements. Most diseases are in decline before appropriate treatments or preventative measures were developed. This isn’t just true for smallpox and polio, but also for scarlet fever and penicillin, tuberculosis and isoniazid, and the treatments for several other diseases in the 1990s.
However, notice that I say “in decline” rather than “all but wiped out”. This is an important distinction. Note also that part of the reason for this decline is people more susceptible to dying genetically being picked off, an evolutionary process.
I don’t know about David, but it seems a bit inhumane to me to allow any human to die to a preventable disease, even if it technically makes our species stronger.
Standards of living help people recover from diseases quicker. This means less deaths. Medical advances, such as vaccination, speed up this process and act synergistically. Vaccination is also extremely cheap, makes next to no money for pharmaceutical companies (if it made money for them we’d get a new one every year at a minimum) and saves lives.
And anyone who believes in government conspiracies has a lot more faith in their ability to do things than I do. If anything that’s what history shows us, that government conspiracies simply don’t work, and that was before the internet.
Hey, I have three degrees too! Can we play “degrees-off”?
I’ve tried 3 degrees but the doctors saving my life must’ve prevented me from completing them.
In any case if David has done any peer-reviewed studies not done by anti-vaccine groups I’d be happy to read them to see if what he says is true.
@David
“I once did a presentation at a year 7 class and presented science and I got real responses, real information back from these kids.”
Now you can go get some practice presenting science to adults who finished year 7 decades ago and have since completed high school, university, doctorates and diplomas in specialised fields. When you’ve successfully demonstrated some real ability with science, then I’m sure someone other than 7th graders will take you seriously.
Can anyone raise David with a PHd? I love education poker!
lulz
Hey David,
a BA degree in laziness, philosophy and navel lint collecting does not equate to a degree in a field that requires ACTUAL logical thinking…. like Dr Rachie I’ve got multiple degrees and a research background too…. and unlikely you I can actually spell.
Whose money was better spent on education? Not yours.
This is just an educated guess ….
‘David’ is Meryl in drag.
Thanks for keeping us informed!
‘Two sides of a story’ only works if you’re talking about stories. The earth goes around the sun doesn’t have two sides, etc etc. If you’ve spent all that time studying science it’s a pity you didn’t find out what it actually was first.
And I have two degrees, a post-graduate diploma and two Cert IVs. Is that enough to play?
Oh Dr Rachie….I am so upset..I only have 2 degrees and one on the way…I think that means I am expecting!!…I do however feel that considering my 2 degrees are in the field of health and the third is in the field of Law, I get to come second in the trumping of David who appears to have degrees in the field of….??? Research!!
Yes yes Deb…you too can come play how many certifications does it take to make a mud pie!!
Hmm….let’s see….Dr Rachies with 3 degrees, Caroline…several, Deb 2 degrees & some dips & Cert IV’s…I have 2 degrees & a cert IV….and David is a partridge in a pear tree!
I think the degrees that have required lateral thinking and …oh yes grammatical correctness are in front at the moment David…Wanna try for a Trump??…I believe you may require some divine intervention!
Would David be at all prepared to provide details of said friend at well respected science organisation who is obviously (if what David suggests is true) breaking the law and at the very least in breach of what ever code of ethics his/her institution would no doubt expect their employees to abide by! We would be more than happy to expose any person who was fraudulently selling safety certificates or the like! Can’t have corrupt people putting our lives at risk now can we?
Mike sits back with bag of popcorn and sincerely hopes David comes back and posts more comments.
It’s almost unfair to play with the troll, given his gross stupidity and our overwhelmingly better armaments….
Of course the antivaccination believers will accept his stupidity and decry the rst of us as Big Pharma Whores, so we’re really only playing for the benefit of our own amusement at the other side’s antics.
Nice one, David. Just a quick question – with your level of literacy, how did you manage to get those three degrees?
Facepalms self at reading previous post denigrating David’s spelling ability – I spelled the actual word used correctly (unlikely) but was actually after the word “unlike”.
See David, when you are wrong you admit it and move on instead of clinging to your erroneous beliefs in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
Try it some time.
Hi David, I don’t really understand why you declined to answer my question but fair enough. Let me ask another – how do you evaluate the veracity of the sites you use to do your research? After all, anybody can publish anything these days; there are even sites about alien reptile overlords…
The reptile overlords are a lie, the royalty are really amphibians but the guy who discovered this knew nothing about the difference.
Likewise Caroline!!….A proofread prior to posting would bode well for me..but then again we’re not the ones claiming superior knowledge and intellect because of our myriad (collective) academic awards…some of which I must say make my handful pale into insignificance! David appears to have gone strangely quiet, I wonder if he’s rummaging at the bottom of the AVN bickie barrel for some legitimate and relevant academic accomplices to play because we appear to have led with the right Bower!
Getting lonely here David!!!!….
Thanks for the update, Dave, I was unable to check yesterday
And David? Thanks for the lulz.
Caroline, denegrating BAs as “navel-gazing” and “laziness” is very, very petty. And very ignorant. I have two degrees and while I’m not a scientist, my liberal arts training still has taught me to seek an evidentiary basis for all opinions. Consequently I strongly believe in the efficacy of vaccination because of the strength of research evidence supporting it.
Wow, fantastic blog post with even more fantastic comments. Thanks, Dave and David – this has been a tremendous read.
Sarah, I don’t think all BAs are worthless, I have a number of friends with BA after their name, and took a number of Arts subjects myself in my first degree – theres a lot to be said for a rounded education. What institution and what you actually study is more relevant than the letters after your name sometimes; be that as it may the stereotype is the “lazy BA” and I certainly played to that. Sorry if that offended you but not all humour is appreciated by everyone. There are plenty of pro vaccine supporters out there with no higher education too, but the capacity for rational thought which puts them several cuts above David already.
Hmm….let’s see….Dr Rachies with 3 degrees, Caroline…several, Deb 2 degrees & some dips & Cert IV’s…I have 2 degrees & a cert IV….and David is a partridge in a pear tree!
I forgot to mention I have a certificate in fine art, an associate diploma in graphic design and I’ve completed AWARD school.
HOW MANY POINTS DO I GET????!!!!!!1111
I have a gold swimming badge.
Nice post.
“It’s coy that your client is shy about admitting what it’s on about”. Hehe.
Pity David took off when asked for evidence. Still, as annoying as such are they prove their paranoia erroneous every time.
They can they rant and rave nonsense unimpeded – their word protected by law and their opponents. Check out the false belief that because mortality was falling via improved recovery this somehow means infection was also falling. Wrong!
We also happen to live in an era wherein our management of disease, pain and agonising bodily malfunctions are corrected with such ease and at such huge success rates we can sit back and whine about the inevitable failures or side effects that this brings.
Said it before, but I’ll say it again.
You know you’re free when you’re free to be an idiot.
Are you saying the HCCC did not check Mr McLeod’s asserions? That is a worry. Regardless of where you stand on this issue, a complaint should not be regarded as 100% accurate. I hope the HCCC did check all the facts, and don’t rely on something that wasn’t true. If the AVN loses, could that be grounds for appeal?
I have a B.A. and a black belt. One is useful for defending the reputation of the other.
@Christine, I’m pretty sure they did, which is why it took them 12 months to make a decision on the complaint. They did not deal with this frivolously.
I got an elephant stamp one in primary school. I think it was for good work with plasticine.
I’m for vaccination.
*once*.
No gold star for good work in tpying – ever.
Excellent update, thanks Dave. I would like to come along to the hearings but alas these things are not always an option so I shall support from afar and appreciate those who are able to make the space to attend.
Oh can I play with David too? Lets see I will pop a LLB and Bsc with a side order of Grad Dip, admission to practice law in my home state and also in the High Court (just pay your fee for HC admission).
Is that enough to join in or should I also throw in my knighthood and elevation to Bishop of Bath and Wells. You see David, something here is true and something is not. Alas I might be claiming the knighthood and elevation to Bishop of Bath and Wells to impress and suggest I more clever than I really am. Yet there is no way of checking on the internets for the accuracy of these claims without some other independent proof.
Alas your claims are equally as unprovable. In fact not only the education claims but almost all the others too.
Is there a term for Trolls chest thumping their alleged achievements?
“Is there a term for Trolls chest thumping their alleged achievements?”
Hmmm. A death rattle of achievements?
A troll trill?
An annoyance? A turd fest? A trollump? Oooh a Trollump… Possible, possible.
David wrote:
“…. smallpox and polio were all but wipeout (sic) prior to vaccination”.
Smallpox – WHO:
http://i.imgur.com/Woj5b.jpg
Polio – Oz Gov:
http://i.imgur.com/DD5l2.jpg
Pwnage – Me:
http://i.imgur.com/kynbp.jpg
I’m working on my first degree now…
Can I haz a half a point??
3 degrees hey David? Well I’m a doctor and 2 lawyers! Fail on the argument from authority. Try a real argument next time maybe?
So… I should have refreshed the page before commenting. I see David already got his ass handed to him for his silly claims.
I say that absolutely everyone is welcome to join the band of merry peoples! It really doesn’t matter whether you have a University degree or a School Certificate or have never managed to complete school for whatever reason! We all have much to contribute. The aim was to educate David on the fact that regardless how good you may think you are..there is always someone who can trump you!
On behalf of my friend David I thank you all again for your comments, especially all those with a “degree”, maybe of stupidity but not much else. Your thoughts and ignorance have been duly noted for the report. Oh and Dr Rachie clearly the Pied Piper of this merry band of idiots, dont worry Doctor, maybe you will be on the HCCC hit list next!! But keep leading your rats…..we all know what happens next!!!
CC to the Internatioanl medical advisory board…….oops did I let that bt slip…my bad!!
I see Michael Jensen has joined us
I dunno… it could be any manner of anti-vaxer with irregularity issues…
I like your anti-authoritarian approach to orthography.
I’m guessing Govt Myths’ degree is in Tinfoil Hat. Why would the HCCC care about a doctor dispensing good medical advice?
DO MEDICAL DIPLOMAS CREATE SUPERMEN OR WOMEN? Is it wise to trust in “medical authorities” (sic), who say that such and such a new drug (poison) is safe for mass immunization, when thousands of the drugs as found in the doctor’s MIMS (drug index), quote that:- “..the actual biological effect upon a person is not really understood or even known?” Is It of any concern to the “thinking” person, that years after each great discovery of yet another poisonous substance, that it too is found to be deleterious to the subject’s health? The public are often surprised to learn that a poisonous drug, turns out to be poisonous to one’s health! Is there much intelligence necessary to decipher the difference between poisonous drugs and poisonous drugs? If the drug is poisonous to begin with, then surely It will always remain, a poisonous drug!
It is interesting to note that the drug manufacturers pour large funds into medical and agricultural universities. They also provide great manuals of information on how to use their drugs for most every problem. The final products of this system are of course Medical and Agricultural specialists, i.e. glorified drug peddlars. “The art of medicine is not one of healing people anymore, but is an art of keeping a person alive long enough, in order that his monies can be emptied into the medical institution’s coffers.”
The dose makes the poison.
better make that a PhD in Tinfoil Hat
“We have no real proof of the boasted effectiveness of any form of anti-toxin or vaccine or serum… If such a vaccinated or immunised person contracts the disease which he is supposed to be protected, it is pretty good evidence that such “protection” is valueless, isn’t it? Surely people do contract disease against which they are supposed to be immunised, as we all know…. Well, are you satisfied that WE ARE QUACKS? In the eyes of those who are willing to forgot the present prestige of medicine, such as it is, with all its dignity, its scientific jargon, its pratings of altruism, its great endowment, its well heralded “achievements,” we are most assuredly quacks, professing to do things we cannot do, and yes, taking money under this pretence.”
No.
“Materia Medica is simply a list of drugs and poisons. They are all subversive of organic structure; all incompatible with vital functions; all are antagonistic to living matter; all produce disease.”
I’m pretty sure he’s just ignoring you in order to expatiate his own dribble… why do you approve his comments? I’d be advising him to get a cup to catch some of that dribble and take his paranoid delusions to a psychologist before the “men in white suits” from “Big Pharma” come to get him for speaking against them.
Dave, It is clearly proven that the only people who got a disease TWICE were the vaccinated… You can be LOADED with antibodies and still get it, even DIE from the disease!!
Marty, “They say openly in the [medical] legal system that if you advise against vaccination the A.M.A. will push to deregister.” So it to be true!!
Marty, I tend to support free speech, even for nutters.
Government Myths, I note you appear to be repeating the Doreyan Fallacy. Once you’ve actually read the post I directed you to, would you care to back up your claims with evidence?
Dave, clearly I can, Before he [Louis Pasteur - the 'father of so called modern medicine' and originator of the Germ Theory of disease] died, he changed his mind. He stated, “ it’s not the germ, but the conditions within the body” Dave, You see we are all individuals, but we can also clearly be manipulated into believing any lie if the lie is told often and it is large enough!
Even if were related to the claim you made, an unsourced quote from a researcher, whose work was severely disrupted by his death 117 years ago, would not count as evidence in my mind.
Government Crazy Person, I didn’t give you permission to talk to me, you slime-smeared odorwaffle. So don’t.
Marty, Nor I you to comment on a separate discussion with another person, please do not show your lack of intelligence it is not very endearing
Neither are your tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. I challenge you to prove just one of them.
Dave, I have had patients with varying degrees of illness, but the severity of these illnesses were of little relevance, in comparison to the persons attitude. 90% of all disease originates in the mind! It is incorrect habits of diet and living that encourages disease, and it is the incorrect attitudes of the mind that enables disease to continue. I have never cured a single person from any single ailment in 30years and know of no pier that has; that is an impossibility to ever accomplish. No one can heal another person. The practice of medicine in it’s many forms, whether natural or unnatural, are today not at all what they should be, due to the position and attitude of the people – to be specific – their aversion to taking advice, instead of medicines. Nine times out of ten, people will consider prevention of disease in the shape of a pill, a powder, or a shot of serum, but seldom will they do so at the expense of giving up their follies and bad habits of living. This tendency of the public to prefer drugs and operations, instead of knowledge, information and advice, is commonly met with everywhere, I am sure that you also can see this!!
Speaking of habits and living.
I have a terrible diet, I don’t exercise, and I smoke like a chimney. However, according to my doctor, I’m as fit and healthy as anyone my age. I’m 28, I weigh just under 65 kilos and stand 176cm tall with a healthy BMI, and if I want to I can still sprint more than 500m to get on a bus and only be out of breath for a few seconds.
I’ve been hospitalised twice, ever, both times for surgery for unrelated conditions that were caused by injury.
I’ve had all my vaccines and have never had a VPD. I do have autism, but vaccines didn’t cause it. If they did, I don’t care, autism is awesome. It makes me highly intelligent (IQ 147) and it makes me exactly who I am. And I like who I am. The evidence is in that vaccines don’t cause autism, but let me reiterate: if it did cause autism, I WOULD NOT CARE, and I would still get my children vaccinated.
I defeated a headache tonight with a pill, and I feel great. I do it whenever I have a headache, pop a nurofen and it’s gone inside of five minutes with no side effects.
The tendency of the public to turn to conventional medicine is BASED on knowledge that it works. Your assumption that everyone lacks knowledge because of that is not just highly arrogant, it flies in the face of all the evidence. HARD evidence. HISTORICAL evidence, the kind that has proven conventional medicine WORKS time and time again.
Conventional medicine has done me no harm, nor has it harmed that VAST majority of the population. The vast majority of people that HAVE been harmed has been the result of human error, not the medicine or the science, and guess what? Natural and alternative medicine is just as liable to human error as anything else. It is still humans using it, recommending it, selling it. Natural and alternative medicine makes money too, you know.
Marty, Since you insist on joining my conversation, In proportion to people’s ignorance of their own constitutions and the power of functions of their own bodies, is their unbelievable confidence in drugs and serums, and as long as this ignorance persists, there will be plenty of doctors who pander to it. Hence the medical Institution in its entirety, is one of the largest money making businesses in all the world; also, the medical institution is actually quite fraudulent, in that it does not deliver the goods as prescribed within the Hippocratic Oath:- “…I will give no deadly medicine to anyone if asked; nor suggest any such counsel…”
Marty, Your IQ is respectable, please put it to better use, please reread your last comments and reflect on them.
Good Night!!
Dude, I joined the commenting on this page AGES ago, and the last I checked, it’s a public forum, so aside from my quip about you talking to me (which, honestly, was just a good excuse to call you a slime-smeared odorwaffle), I can’t get rid of you any more than you can get rid of me. “Your” conversation here is open to anyone that is free to comment. If you don’t like that, bugger off.
“In proportion to people’s ignorance of their own constitutions and the power of functions of their own bodies,”
What makes you think you know their bodies better than they do? How do you know how they feel? If I ain’t sick, I ain’t gonna go see a doctor. If I am sick, I will go see a doctor. My confidence in pharmaceuticals is etched in titanium, deeper and deeper, every time they work for me and do exactly what they say they will. I don’t use many – a nurofen here and there for a once-in-a-blue-moon headache, I might get a cold every two or three years that will last about 12 hours because of my strong immune system and some panadol and phenylephrine usually do the trick.
“Hence the medical Institution in its entirety, is one of the largest money making businesses in all the world;”
Errr…. no. Pharmaceutical companies make most of their money from cosmetics, not drugs.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_by_revenue
Now, I know it’s wikipedia, but I’ve checked the references and the information is accurate. I’ve read through this page before. Of the top fifty richest companies in the world, most of them are mineral fuel companies. Hell, Walmart makes more money than pharmaceuticals do. The first Health Care company is in spot number 40, and it’s the only one in the top 50. McKesson Corporation. See if you can find Merck, I dare you.
Once again, conspiracy theory is rubbish. Go write a fiction novel about it where it belongs, I’m sure it’ll sell well.
And you can question my IQ all you like, it doesn’t affect me, or change it, in any way. Your failure to grasp simple reasoning and logic is appalling, and you still haven’t provided me any PROOF of a conspiracy theory: that is, your word alone is not proof. It is the ravings of a deluded lunatic on the fringe of alternative medicine trying to make a buck himself by discrediting conventional evidence-based science.
pretty much ultra stoked I was subscribed to this. email is full of madness.
Merck is another branch of Big Pharma with a long list of deaths to its credit. It was five years before Merck made its $30 billion recall of Vioxx that.
As people began to die from heart attacks, strokes, and blood clotting disorders, I didn’t like being right. But I hated that after it was over, and the drug had been pulled, that Merck appeared to pick up the pieces painlessly – pun intended – by getting a new drug fast-tracked and on the market, lickety-split.
That drug is Gardasil, a vaccine that so far has been linked to thousands of adverse events and at least 49 unexplained deaths. It’s a situation that the FDA and CDC have been denying repeatedly, keeping their heads buried in the sand even as the adverse reports mount.
Merck has had other problems through the years, with more than $5.5 billion in judgments and fines levied against it. But like Pfizer, apparently somebody thinks this company is also “too big to fail.”
Maybe this is why your beloved Merck is down in the rankings, they had too many payouts.
Top50 drug pedlars in the world
1 Pfizer
2 GlaxoSmithKline
3 Sanofi-Aventis
4 Novartis
5 AstraZeneca
6 Johnson & Johnson
7 Merck
8 Wyeth
9 Bristol-Myers Squibb
10 Eli Lilly
11 Abbott Labs
12 Roche
13 Amgen
14 Boehringer-Ingelheim
15 Takeda
16 Astellas
17 Schering-Plough
18 Bayer
19 Schering AG
20 Genentech
21 Novo Nordisk
22 Eisai
23 Teva
24 Merck KGaA
25 Sankyo
26 Otsuka
27 Forest Labs
28 Daiichi
29 Baxter
30 Akzo Nobel
31 Altana
32 Chugai
33 Solvay
34 UCB
35 Genzyme
36 Serono
37 Allergan
38 Mitsubishi
39 Gilead Sciences
40 Lundbeck
41 Watson
42 Biogen Idec
43 Shire
44 Shionogi Seiyaku
45 King
46 Tanabe Seiyaku
47 Kyowa Hakko
48 Mylan Labs
49 MedImmune
50 Ono
In all, 19 drug companies made AllBusiness.com’s Top 100 Corporate Criminals List for the 1990s.
What is sad and shocking is that this was just the tip of the iceberg, AllBusiness.com said in its report.
“For every company convicted of health care fraud, there are numerous others who get away with ripping off Medicare and Medicaid, or face only mild slap-on-the-wrist fines and civil penalties when caught,”
In January the US Dept. of Justice accused Johnson & Johnson of paying tens of millions of dollars in kickbacks to Omnicare Inc to buy and recommend Johnson & Johnson drugs.
This latest scheme is the subject of a federal lawsuit that has 18 states suing not just Omnicare, but 14 other major drug companies, alleging that they ran this scheme together.
The lawsuit’s been filed under the federal False Claims Act and, yes, Merck, Pfizer, Roche, Johnson & Johnson, and GlaxoSmithKline are all in there with Omnicare. Watch for news of this lawsuit in the upcoming months – but in the meantime, think about this: in the wake of all this hassle, Omnicare’s CEO Joel Gemunder has quit, but not without remuneration.
I also discovered that Avandia topped the list of drugs linked to fatal adverse events in 2009, according to an analysis of U.S. Food and Drug Administration records. With a staggering 1,354 deaths reported to the FDA in 2009 alone, it’s hard to believe that this drug is still even in discussion!
Merck, Guilty of fraud and/or Illegal sales activity 7 times last year, 100,000 Individuals or together in class action suits.
$5.5 Billion+ Dollar Amount of fines, judgments as a result of criminal or civil litigation, I guess without their criminal activity, they would obviously be higher up the rankings og businesses in the world
Interesting how when the legal system works in the favour of the anti-vaxer et al, it’s evidence that vaccines are bad, but when the legal system works AGAINST the anti-vaxer, et al, ie Andrew Wakefield, it’s evidence of a conspiracy and vaccines are still bad.
Big business and legalities don’t change the science behind the vaccines, they are technicalities that muddy the waters, and cloud your judgement. You are not without bias.
The world is closing in on the so called “legal” drug trade fraud that has been going on for decades, screw them, bury them and make them pay.They will pay, millions of people are waking up to this global fraud!!!!
Wakefield is about to be cleared, the media con tied to big pharma discredited the science, watch and learn, facts are facts and simple dociles like my friend Marty will realise his life has been a con!!!
When you say ‘millions’, what you really mean is a few random crazies, right? Millions make headlines, crazies don’t. If it was millions, they would have a little more attention, don’t you think?
Predetermining the outcome of this trial by stating matter-of-factly that he is about to be cleared is about as dumb as trying to predict the future; what if he isn’t cleared? It’s a good way to shove your foot in your mouth, and prove yourself wrong. That’s the difference between science and pseudoscience – science doesn’t speculate, it hypothesises. The odds of Wakefield getting cleared in a Texan court are very slim. Very slim.
Drugmaker GlaxoSmithKline has preliminarily agreed to a $3 billion settlement over the sales and marketing practices of several of its drugs, including the diabetes drug Avandia.
This represents the largest federal drug-company settlement to date, surpassing the $2.3 billion paid by Pfizer in 2009 for illegally promoting off-label uses of four of its drugs.
The sum, though extraordinarily large by most people’s standards, represents only a slap on the wrist to the drug giant, which assured investors the payments would be funded by “existing cash resources.”
To put things into perspective, GlaxoSmithKline has a market value of more than $110 billion, according to the New York Times.
This massive financial clout essentially allows them to engage in criminal behavior that they can later buy their way out of – not unlike the way you might pay for a speeding ticket.
Also, I’m not your friend, and if you have to resort to calling me docile, then I’m obviously scrambling your thinking circuits somewhat – I take it you consider yourself important enough that your opinion of me means something? Cuz it really doesn’t.
Anyway, I’m going to ignore my email notifications when you comment on this blog, now. I don’t particularly feel like wasting a relaxing Sunday night talking to mindless arrogant fools.
One thing should be crystal clear at this point: the drug industry simply cannot be trusted. And they have the criminal history to prove it.
Drug companies have accumulated so much wealth, power and government influence that they have been able to profit from permanently disabling, crippling and even killing their consumers, without suffering any serious consequences to themselves.
Unfortunately, the people who stand to lose in this equation are you, your family and millions of others who use drug company products without realizing that oftentimes those products have been found to cause far more harm than good.. But there is an alternative, and that is to take control of your health.
Many diseases of modern society — heart disease, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, obesity – can be prevented or cured using lifestyle changes. We’ll never know how many people’s lives could have been saved if those taking GlaxoSmithKline’s Avandia had opted for diet and exercise changes instead — but what we can do is try to prevent this scenario from happening again in the future by not falling prey to the next blockbuster drug to hit the market.
Fortunately, states’ attorneys general like Zoeller are gaining ground in gathering support for rooting out the criminal acts that Big Pharma continues to perpetuate. More and more, organizations like the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, the False Claims Act Legal Center, and Politicol News are starting to investigate and publicize the illegal – and criminal – actions that these companies have been getting away with for years.
Last July, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius also announced the formation of the Healthcare Fraud Prevention and Enforcement Action Team, which together with the Department of Justice, US Attorneys’ Offices and other federal agencies will target healthcare and drug fraud.
Thanks to the federal False Claims Act, state and federal investigators have a gun that they can use to hunt down and prosecute these heinous crimes with. If you visit the False Claims Act Legal Center website, you’ll get a hint of just how much this type of corporate crime has been going on. One thing should be crystal clear at this point though, and that is that the drug industry simply cannot be trusted. They have the criminal history to prove it.
Marty, you dumb simple piece of left over dog F”"”, when are you going to wake up to the fraud
Look, here’s my final word.
If all these alternatives to pharmaceuticals you’ve suggested are SOOOOO effective, then why isn’t the pharmaceutical industry trying to capitalise on them??? Why don’t Merck sell homoeopathic tonics? Why doesn’t GSK supply Black Salve? It’s not because they work, mate, it’s because they don’t work, and they haven’t been approved as effective treatments, because they don’t work, or they do more harm then good.
The products approved for pharmaceutical companies are approved by regulation. The only other explanation would be a worldwide grand conspiracy that simply wouldn’t work, but I think most of your kind are far too paranoid to stop believing that SOMEONE is out to get you – I’m sure if it wasn’t the pharmaceutical industry, it’d be someone else.
Really? A “dumb simple piece of left over dog F”””?” How mature of you. Your mother would be proud of how much you’ve ‘grown up’ since high school.
I’ll wake up to the fraud when there is fraud. Like Wakefield, for example. That was pretty obvious fraud, didn’t take much waking up to see that.
I think you’re lost myths, this isn’t infowars or abovetopsecret.com. Maybe you should try those guys, they’ll buy anything.
Oh Marty, my kind are PhD, we have the science and have the history and we have the facts. My mother since you would introduce her into this discussion was a chief researcher for one of these fraudulent big pharma cons and she left this planet due to their influence. Maybe you should research that and you may then find I know exactly what I am talking about. Research chief researcher big pharma mysterious death!! Big pharma does not have any interest in you what so ever!!!, you are just a number, a punter, their ideals are about how the next “product” can sell and no body stands in the way of that. All of these toxic drugs are rebirthed from previous failures or removed from sale products, reformulated and marketed as the next big discovery. Only people like you and the other ignorants on forums like this around the world keep them alive. So yes my mother would be very proud, You are just very lucky she is not here today, as she would track you down and teach you some lessons you would never forget. Oh and Marty, you are dumb, simple and a puppet of the system and I do not expect you to understand that, mainly just because you simply cannot. There are 2 sides to everything, I am involved in both sides everyday and I see the damage done everyday in the name of the greater good!!! wow how simple and gullible are we humans.
You’re a liar, and a paranoid crank. It’s fun to watch you call me dumb, especially considering you know nothing about me. Very brave, too – I don’t know ANYONE that’s brave enough to abuse anonymous people on the internet. Everyone I know is so cowardly that they prefer to abuse me to my face.
Dude, I don’t care what you think, I don’t care what you think you know, and I don’t care what sort of credentials you have, because until you can prove ANYTHING you claim, you’ll just be considered a full-of-crap delusional conspiracy theorist.
See Marty, this is what happens when crack pots that support the system run out of things to say, they become agressive. You have no real science because all the real science never see’s the light of day. Stay deluded and happy in your little bubble and when everything goes to pack, dont expect your government bodies to come help you. Look around the world, when things go wrong the governments run and hide, they look after themselves. Facts are facts marty and you and your kind do not have any, you only have what you are told to believe!
Proof or ban.
It is very clear Stuart, that not only have you “bought” into it!, you seem to have invested your life in to it also. Amazing how gullible humans are, easily lead, this is why the medical world has achieved their goals. But you are not to blame, your pro government everything stance is the way they have conditioned you. People of your kind on this forum are conditioned, you are simple puppets and you repeat the lie’s and the standard mantra. Example, what you all are saying in this and other forums you all have been on is no different and almost word for word in approx. 17 other languages around the world!. Fascinating stuff actually!! yes I know the next statement from you all is that well that proves it must be true, I have heard it all before in many other forums around the world. The truth is you are all puppets and you live your lives in a bubble that you dare not burst, because there would then be mayhem for you, you all desparately need something to believe in. So yes Batani, truth or ban, this is exactly what the world should be saying to the medical revue boards, the likes of the fraudulent HCCC in australia, the pub med fiction novel and so on. I know it it scary for you all, but if you live long enough, which i doubt as you all seem to love the chemical drugs, then you will see the fraud, time proves all things. it has proven thousands of medical and pharma frauds in the past and it will in the future, but alas, you all will still want to be secure inside your bubble. I am sure that as nature intended the weak will not survive and those weakend by pharma will prove this so. Remember todays medicine is the alternate medicine, created from chemical bi products and residue testing, how do I know this, because you simple people I helped develop some of these toxins that you lovingly endorse!!
BAHAHAHA!!! Stuart, you’ve been indoctrinated by the Reapers!!
Seriously, Myths, your expatiation of Government control theories sounds like a sci-fi plot. Please, I’m sure people have better things to do with their time than to help you make yourself look like a complete idiot, so don’t give them a reason to.
PS, for Reapers reference, please look up Mass Effect. It’s a video game.
Thank you Marty, I would only expect pro pharma to play video games! it seems that you have proven that you do live in a bubble.
Sorry guys must go, my friend David and others are playing with some pro pharma on a London forum, so much more fun. These guys are really hard core, but they have had big pharma longer so we expect that, but still good fun……enjoy your bubbles until one of us come back to play!!!!
Wow, that was pulled from somewhere the sun don’t shine – only pro-pharma indoctrinees play video games? What brought you to that conclusion? That’s a fair leap of logic if I ever saw one. Where is your evidence to support this assertion?
Seriously, though, it goes days and days before my email inbox notifies me that you’ve posted here again, and I have to wonder – do you have a life beyond stupidity for its own sake, or is it just the natural order of your life?
Notice for all the bleeding that SAVN hearts do for the small few children in Australia who die of so-called ‘vaccine preventable disease’, not ONE SAVN member offered David his/her condolences for the child who died in his arms as a result of a vaccine.
Selectively empathetic. Perhaps just pathetic.
And would I risk my children for this herd? Hell no. Selfish sociopaths.
Spitting venom as always I see, Liz. Please point out the part where what Dave claimed was backed by any evidence? If there is a dead child, then my sympathy. If it can be proven to have been caused by a vaccine, then I will help you rally against the manufacturer and government to make sure it is pulled for review.
However, if it is just an anecdote designed to pull the heart strings to give his arguments “weight,” then it is not we who are the sociopaths.
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[...] In Australia, the New South Wales Government Health Care Complaints Commission (HCCC) has issued a public warning about the Australian Vaccination Network (AVN) following complaints laid (PDF file), primarily from the Stop AVN Campaign. (Discussion on this, naturally, abounds. This warning was recently challenged in court; one informal summary is offered on an Australian blog.[2]) [...]
[...] Dave The Happy Singer The Abominable Showman! The funny skeptical blog from an atheist, comedy musician, vegetarian and podcaster Skip to content AboutThe Official BiographyUpcoming Events « AVN v HCCC: It’s the vibe [...]
[...] AVN v HCCC: It’s the vibe [...]
[...] is the first of a couple of posts following up on my posts on the final day of argument in AVN v HCCC and the delivery of the decision. The judgment is very clearly written, and I encourage you to read [...]
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